westom

Please stop taking any technical post emotionally. Even 100 years ago, surge protector were installed to make direct lightning strikes (and lesser surges) irrelevant.

Plug-in protectors are to protect from surges that do you overwhelm protection already inside every appliance. What is that best called? A scam. Which is why plug-in protectors are recommended without even quoting the manufacturer's specifications.

Defined is the only useful answser. Why would anyone recommend an APC or Tripplite protector that does not even claim to protect from any destructive surge? Because retail advertising is that powerful.

Meanwhile Norma in alt.fiftyplus entitled "The Power Outage" describes what power strip protectors can really do:
> Today, the cable company came to replace a wire. Well the cable man pulled a
> wire and somehow yanked loose their "ground" wire. The granddaughter on the
> computer yelled and ran because sparks and smoke were coming from the
> power surge strip.

What kind of protection was that? Well, it did exactly what its spec numbers said it would. You can be indignant. Or discover how others have so mislead you.

As I noted, most difficult admitting one was scammed. You can take it emotionally. Or deal with the hard facts and numbers. There is no insult here. Just reality from someone who has been doing this for a very long time.

Surge protectors are installed to make even direct lightning strikes irrelevant. Or again, numbers. A typical lightning stike is 20,000 amps. Buy one 'whole house' protector in Lowes or Home Depot for less than $50 - rated for 50,000 amps. Large enough to conduct direct lightning strikes harmlessly to earth. Numbers you should have learned before posting or becoming angry. But again, most difficult is admitting you did not know.

JAGSD

Thank you.

galvestonangel

I'm a little confused. I know what a ground is but I am not understanding what is involved with an earth ground. Is this something you have an electrician do? Does it cover the whole house. Do you still need the surge protector?

westom

Your computer motherboard has a digital ground. That is different from its chassis ground. That is different from a wall receptacle safety ground. That is different from a floating ground inside a TV. Different from a single point star ground that interconnects stereo equipment for no ground loops (hum). Different from a bus bar ground inside a breaker box. Different from earth ground that a breaker box connects to.

Earth ground is originally installed when a house is built. In earlier generations, the cold water pipe doubled as an earth ground. For at least 20 years now, water pipes are no long sufficient for any grounding. Earth ground must be an electrode in earth located just outside the breaker box or electric meter.

Every wire that enters your building must first connect to that ground. For example, FCC (and other) regulations require a telephone 'whole house' protector be connected to that ground where the telco's wires connect to your phone wires.

Cable TV requires no protector. That cable connects directly to earth before entering as also required by codes.

AC electric is typically three wires. Only one connects to earth typically using a bare quarter inch copper wire from the breaker box to that required earthing electrode.

Now, too many homes no longer have that earth ground. Some older homes need a newer earth ground electrode installed to meet post 1990 code requirements. A 10 foot copper clad ground rod can be purchased in Lowes, Home Depot, or numerous other places. Or ground can be upgraded by an electrician. But understand this. Only the homeowner is responsible for the existence and integrity of an earth ground.

How important is that ground? Well, a transformer wire failed. Home did not have an earth ground. So AC electric used the gas meter as an electric conductor. Fortunately nobody was home when the house exploded. Ground is essential to human safety. And then a 'whole house' protector must also make a same short (ie 'less than 10 foot') connection to earth.

A ten foot rod is one means of earthing. Another is Ufer ground. Steel rebar inside concrete footings is an even better earth ground (because concrete is a better electrical conductor). Other forms might exist. But this must always exist for both human safety and transistor safety: a short as possible connection from the breaker box (and 'whole house' protector) to a ground electrode used by all those incoming utility wires. Called a single point earth ground.

Every protection layer is defined by its earth ground. Above discusses ground for the 'secondary' protection layer. Your utility installs 'primary' protection. However too many linemen cannot be bothered to maintain their 'primary' protection ground. A picture that demonstrates what to inspect:
http://www.tvtower.com/fpl.html

Many different grounds exist. But for appliance safety, earth ground is the only ground that does surge protection. Your primary and secondary protection layers are defined by a ground installed for human safety as defined by codes. And that is installed with even shorter connections to provide transistor safety. If a protector does not have this short connection to earth, then the protector cannot do effective protection.

Appreciate another point. No soundbyte explains this well understood, 100 year old technology. So many will recommend a magic box protector. That box is easier to promote. Earth ground - not any protector – does the protection. And costs so little. But most do not know about something they cannot see. So a magic box, instead, is what so many are told to buy.

Mattee

I do not disagree that the whole house needs to be grounded. However, if surge protectors are nothing but a scam, there are thousands of websites that explain how a surge protector works that all must be lying. I just don't think that is happening. I do not believe that there is some major conspiracy theory. I know they don't protect from everything, and I know the house must be grounded as well, but I am certain that spending $40 for the two surge protectors I need for my computer and my sewing machine provides me with some protection, even if westom disagrees with me.

JAGSD

I totally agree with you!

crashnquilt

Westom: Defined is the only useful answser. Why would anyone recommend an APC or Tripplite protector that does not even claim to protect from any destructive surge? Because retail advertising is that powerful.

Once again you did not read THE WHOLE STATEMENT. Much like a politician you are only seeing what you want to see. The follow up statement to that is BECAUSE OF THEIR INSURANCE. I do know, by personal experience, their insurance does pay out quickly and for a claimant that is important.

quiltingnana1

We use surge protectors for various appliances. We also have a "whole house" protector. Not sure any of them will help with a "direct hit," but for the everyday, stormy weather surges, they do add an element of protection. I am also careful to unplug sewing machines when not in use.

westom

Wow. You actually think a warranty will be honored?

Did you read reams of fine print exemptions so that the 'insurance' is not honored? A latest APC exemption says that no 'whole house' protector means an APC warranty is void.

Another warranty said a protector from any other manufacturer in the house voided their warranty. These exemptions come in waves so that the warranty - as so obvious in the fine print - will not be honored.

A best warranty for cars is GM - 100,000 miles or five years. That proves GM cars are superior to Honda and Toyota? Nonsense. A best warranty usually indentified the worst product.

I am surprised I even have to mention this. I foolishly assumed you knew warranties say little useful about the problem. Apparently I was wrong. Anyone who needs insurance buys it from a broker who must meet federal and state standards. That surge protector warranty is, well, Newsman (like so many others) learned the hard way in "SONY TiVo SVR-2000":
> Eventually it boiled down to a line in the warranty that said
> "Belkin at it's sole discretion can reject any claim for any reason".

westom

First, the 'whole house' need not be grounded. Only a 'whole house' protector and all incoming wires must be earthed. Major difference.

Second, did you know that Saddam's WMDs were a myth? I did long before Shock and Awe. How can that be when thousands of websites and millions of people said he had WMDs?

A scam is that easily promoted - even for protectors that do nothing verses protectors that have been proven for over 100 years. I never said all surge protectors are a scam. I said protectors that do not even claim surge protection - ie APC, Tripplite, Monster - are profit centers.

Then I provided numbers for how profitable. Take a $3 power strip. Add some ten cent protector parts. Sell it for $40 or $150. That sounds like a superb scam because it works. Believe me. I would scam you just as avidly with profit margins that extreme.

Third, why is Monster also selling the same protector? Please stop entertaining your feelings. Grasp hard reality.

Did you know speaker wire has polarity? Swap the speaker and amplifier ends. Then audio sound is perverted. Of course not. But Monster was also selling speaker wire marked for the amplifier and speaker ends. Selling $7 speaker wire for $70 because that scam also worked. Reams of people could actually *hear* the difference.

That is what Monster does. Identify a scam. Then sell the same product for even higher profits. Monster is selling the same ineffective protectors sold by Belkin and Tripplite at even higher prices. Most 'assume' a higher price means better quality. Scams work. Especially when someone feels only because others tell them how to think - without facts or numbers. How many times have you cured the common cold?

Finally, show me thousands of web sites that explain how a protector protects from direct lighting strikes? That is what an effective protector did even 100 years ago. Many web sites will recommend a protector. But then foolishly claim nothing can protect from lightning. Why does your telephone CO do it with every thunderstorm? When thousands of web sites say nothing can protect from direct lightning strikes?

The scam is that widespread because so many feel rather than learn - as you are doing now. Where are those spec numbers? Not provided. APC and Tripplite do not even claim that protection.

Or, the latest shyster trick. Put that same protector circuit inside a fancier box with a digital number display. Sell the same $3 and tens of cents protector for many $hundreds under the Furman name. Yes, spin is that easy because so many people don't even ask a simple question. Where are those manufacturer spec numbers?

Oh. It’s a "line conditioner". So it must do more than a surge protector? What kind of logic is that? People using feelings.

How many died uselessly in Nam due to lies from the Gulf of Tonkin? At what point do you learn how easily scams are promoted? Or should we all be buying Pond's Age Defying creams because creams applied to dead skin cells stop aging? Or Dannon Yogurt because they invented a myth called something like digitalus retalitis for better digestion. Not one of how many cold remedies cures the common cold. How many millions waste money on Emergen-C, Airborne, and other scams. Please. Scams are routine and widespread. Which is why Monster is also selling power strip protectors.

Instead learn science proven for over 100 years. Your telephone CO suffers 100 surges with each thunderstorm without damage. COs earth 'whole house' protectors. And do not plug-in scams. COs do not want protectors that can even make damage easier.

It is this simple. A protector is only as effetive as its earth ground. No dedicated earth ground wire on that protector? You have just identified a scam.